[MUSIC] So in, in, in, in some ways the a lot depends on where you position reciprocity if you're, in the h squared stream and, and you, you have this self-interested person. Kind of thinking about whether I want reciprocity or not, or just pursuing his or her own particular self-interest. And, and nostrum's stream and others, we read Benkler in this class, reciprocity is there at the start, and then that makes a big difference, doesn't it? >> Absolutely, and the problem that Hobbes has, is how do you. It's a kind of a catch-22 problem. If we have a structure here we're there's a social expectations of reciprocity, and people therefore are benefiting from those networks that provide that kind of reciprocity, and the opportunities to engage cooperatively with others and making everybody better off. Then it's in your self interest. >> Yeah >> To play by the rules. >> Right. >> In places where you don't have it. Then, how do you get it rolling? >> Yeah. >> Because that requires trust. >> Right. >> And if you don't already have reciprocity, how can you. >> How do you generate trust, yeah. Yeah. And we, we're, we're going to be talking to Lewis Hyde in this, in this class, whose work on on the commons and, and, has been so important, and on the gift for artists in the United States and for thinking about intellectual property. And, and, he, he really insists on the, on, on the mistake of trying to separate the ego, or the individual, from systems of reciprocity as a starting point because, because then you're always concerned about how to protect that individual rather than how to nourish an ongoing web of reciprocity that is part of what it means to be human. >> Absolutely, yeah, that's absolutely right. And, you know, a kind of concrete example of that is the shift we see in many areas of public policy. >> Mm-hm. Towards focusing on the incentives that providers are offered for engaging in certain kinds of behavior. >> Mm-hm. >> And we have these wonderful words like incentivize, [LAUGH] and so forth. And, and the alternative to that would be codes of professional conduct. >> Mm-hm. >> And professional ethics, you know, which people, providers see themselves as having responsibilities to the community. >> Yes. >> Responsibilities to the profession, that their profession comes with, tied to, a moral good. >> Interesting, yes. >> So that my performance as a lawyer. >> Yes. >> As an educator is not too measured by how much the returns I make for it, but rather by my conformity to a certain code of ethics and my realization. That's the purposes that the profession is defined around and, particularly you think about health is defined around the, i mean the, physicians are defined in terms of the value of health, their lawyers are defined by value of justice. >> Right. >> And education in terms of the value of knowledge. So when you try to defect my behavior by incentivizing me. >> Right. >> I actually may have become more of this ego. >> Right, right. >> Especially than I would have been before. And that brings us to the idea that, what do people count as part of their self interest? >> Yes. >> And that's going to be part of their identity. >> Right, and that identity isn't just individual, isn't just isolated. >> Right, we form our identities through comparison of ourselves with others. >> Right. >> Through the social interactions that we engage in, and so forth. >> And this is Benkler's big theme, right, is that, that the mistake we make is to think that we just layer on the social after the core individuality is there. And core individuality as, you just said, core individuality is constructed in relationship and he likes to use the examples in contemporary technology about Wikipedia, for example. One of his favorite examples is that cooperation can become part of one's ethos and not and it goes all the way down. It's not something that you can just layer on. And, and, or, or try to maximize your individual good through your being a lawyer, or being a, an editor of Wikipedia. It's just, it's just, it's part of who you are, in relation to others. >> Right, exactly. And, and his idea, he argues along with many others that are intellectual property laws in this country have become way out of whack. >> Yes. >> Because by creating these very strong property rights, and ideas, and knowledge, and so on and so forth. They wall people off from each other. >> Yeah. >> And the growth of culture and the growth of knowledge and so on and so forth, is a function of the free flow of ideas and so forth. >> Yes. >> You don't write something to Nova. >> Right. >> You are responding to the voices of your culture, of your tradition. >> Yes. >> And if you can't appropriate that, those ideas. And transform them, you can't produce anything new. >> Exactly. >> And so, the whole idea behind intellectual property laws is that it's supposed to give people the incentive to come up with new ideas and so on and so forth. >> Yeah. >> But if you push it too far in that direction. >> Right. >> You actually undercut the growth of knowledge. >> This is Hyde's theme as well, Louis Hyde's theme as well. [COUGH] And we had when Professor Lawrence Lessig visit Wesleyan a few years ago and I'm hoping to talk with him in the context of this class as well. Of just, on just on this theme about how the emphasis on protecting the individual actually can be an impoverishment both of the cultural and of the individual, ultimately. [LAUGH] >> Exactly right. >> Ultimately. In this course the you know, we're, we're, we're starting off with this, this, this idea of a social good because it's, and we've chosen themes that are not let me put it this way, particularist. So we're going on next week to talk about, poverty and how to, how to combat it, especially extreme poverty. Then we'll be talking about climate change and then we'll be talking about issues around education, especially education and gender, and then, you know, we've chosen these large themes because I hope the students who are participating in the class would not say, well I do not really care about climate change. It is not of my business or I do not care about education. It is not my business. It seems like it is a human business. It is part of our social being. >> Mm-hm. >> That the, that we have to confront these issues that, they're not something we can just separate ourselves from. >> Yeah, well, you think about climate change; this is very much a tragedy of the common situation. >> Yes. >> You've heard, and one proposal that's often put forward to address it is a cap and trade system. >> Yes. >> Cap and trade system, in effect, creates property rights in the atmosphere. >> Yeah. >> It's, so it's very much Lockian. >> Yeah. >> Kind of thing in terms of what we were talking about before. >> Yes. >> Carbon tax, on the other hand, is what [LAUGH] you could say as, well it's it, it, it's more of, of ruled by [UNKNOWN]. >> Yes. >> But it's not I, I, I won't go down that road. >> Yeah. >> It's like it's more complicated. >> Yeah. But that, it does you need a strong external authority. I guess I, I. >> You need some system of social organization. >> Right. >> To take care of it, and Austin's work depends heavily, for example, upon the idea that, that the actions of people are visible to each other. >> Yes. >> Since climate change is a global problem. >> Right. We, there's no way of settling outside of some kind of a systematic structure of authority that well generate rules that everybody will follow. But it doesn't have to be a, Leviathin, or a Hobbesian. >> Right. >> Kind of approach. Because, since its in everyone's interest to follow those rules, if everyone else is doing so. If we could develop a structure through which the rules could be agreed. >> Yes. >> And, it's reasonable to think that that structure will be effective, even if there's some free-riding that goes on. >> Yeah, it's interesting in her work the, she, she points out these, these, systems of communal management, and or communal participation that preserves resources over ti-, over long periods of time. That works so well because of the kind of tradition of trust. >> Mm. >> And I guess one of the things we're trying to confront now is, how do you jump-start that, or how do you ignite traditions of trust without creating a Leviathan? >> Mm-Hm. >> To do it and, and one of the themes, in this class will be how do we promote social good. I mean, I'm, I'm, this is a class. We're not asking people to, to become Marxists or Liberals or Conservatives or Anarchists. You know, we're not asking people to, to subscribe to an ideology, but we are asking people to think about how they can promote social good, how they can promote an enrichment of the commons, I guess. >> Yes, Yes. >> In the language we've been use today, using today and are there authors that you teach or, or have been thinking about that give us any indications or help about this notion of how can you promote or add to the enrichment of the commons, of the social good? >> A while ago we were talking about the conditions under which people acting individualistically in terms of their own projects and self interests, and I would like to use the words in a broad, things that they care about. >> Things they care about. >> Can produce optimal outcomes And in situations in which it wont produce optimal outcome. >> Right. >> And, economists talk about the difference between these things. It's the question of externalities. >> Right. >> To the extent that my behavior impacts you in ways that aren't consensual. That you, do-, don't, don't involve your agreeing to any effect. >> Right, yes. >> Then the decentralized cancelled approaches are problematic. >> Mm-hm. >> And so the global warming example is the case in point. Where as long as there are, people are free to put carbon into the atmosphere the people who put the carbon in the atmosphere are enjoying the full benefits of the energy that they're producing, or the revenues they get from selling that energy. And the people, but they are not paying the full cost. >> Right. >> The costs have been spread out across the world. And so, so here you clearly have to move away from the decentralized kind of approach. But when we think about the ways in which interests are related, rooted in our identities and the way identities are rooted in our social lives. In the structure of our social lives. We can see that in addition to these models of decentralized self interested market like things. >> Mm-hm. >> And coordinated kinds of activities either through states, or through association, or communal arrangements. We also see how people's conceptions of their own good can be more or less tied to social goods. >> Yes. >> So that, to the extent, for example, that you see yourself as a citizen. >> Mm-hm. >> You view, say, the nonpayment of taxes differently. >> Right. >> From the way as you just see yourself as an adolestick individual. >> Yeah. >> Well it's concerns about your own consumption, by the way your. >> Mm-hm. >> Households consumption bundle. So to the extent that you see yourself as a professional. >> Mm-hm. >> Or as a doctor, or or educator. You as, as opposed to a small business person, or a person who's out, out to maximize their household income. you'll, you'll, you'll see your interest differently and then in acting in a self interested way you'll also be acting in the way that promotes the social good because you've incorporated. >> Right. >> The social good into your own identity. >> So I think what we'll see, at least that I hope we'll see in this class is that people who are studying with us on concerning these large scale global challenges will begin to see how these challenges are relevant to them as citizens of different parts of the world. As, as activists, I think many people who are involved in, in the Social Goods Summit see themselves as activists, see themselves as trying to make a positive difference in the world. And not just before their own consumption bundle. [LAUGH] But because they see themselves as enwebbed in a world that faces extraordinarily dangerous consequences because of our pursuit of particular self interest or because of our pursuit of policies that lead to radical inequality. And one of the things we're trying to do in the class, and, and this is really an experiment. At least for my per-, perspective, is to encourage the students to think about very specific, and I would imagine, small scale things they can do that would contribute to the social good. >> Mm-hm. >> To, to, and to try to write briefly about that, and what that might be. What kinds of alliances they create, what kind of specific actions they create. That if you will, return something to the commons or, or, re-, replenish the social good to some extent. and, and I think the, the the first thing we have to do is to have some shared sense of what the facts are. So we're going to be talking in regard to poverty next week, about what do we know about extreme poverty? What are some of the, you know, what do the economists tell us? What, what are some of the best appraisals of the issue in contemporary social science, and then the second part, which I guess relates back to this notion of relationship or enwebbing, is why you should care? >> Mm-hm. >> You know? >> Mm-hm. >> If you're, if you're watching this class, you may not actually, chances are you're not suffering from extreme poverty [LAUGH], you know? You have a good internet connection, you know about Coursera, you're interested in, and you have access to these materials you are not struggling just to survive. But why should you care about extreme poverty? >> Right. >> And then the third thing is what, what might you do, not that we're going to solve extreme poverty in this class, but what might you do that would be positive? >> Right. >> That would give back to this commons. >> Right that's, that's really interesting and one thing, one kind of social science research I might just mention. >> Yes. >> Is the Wilkinson and Pickett. >> Mm-hm. >> Work and it has a kind of an odd title of The Spirit Level, but they look at inequality and measures of social well-being. Among rich countries. >> Mm-hm. >> And they begin with the observation, which has been confirmed over and over again, that measures of subjective well-being go up quite quickly with income. >> Yes. >> But then after you've escaped poverty it really flattens out. >> Yes. >> And this, so it's also true at the, at the national level as well. Among countries that are relatively rich. There isn't much correlation between how rich they are. >> How happy they are. [LAUGH] >> And people's subjective measures of well being. What's really remarkable, is that among the countries that are relatively rich, there is a very high level of correlation between equality and bene-, good social outcomes. >> Huh. >> They test this looking at OECD nations, the, the, the club of rich countries. >> Yes. >> And they also tested looking within the United States, the 50 states of the United States. And so they look at these, how many of, what proportion of your population is in prison. >> Mm-hm. >> And what, how much inequality is there? >> Right. >> What proportions of your population commits suicide? >> Right. >> That would show inequality. >> Yeah. And it's remarkable. Over and over and over again, they find that equality is associated with better outcomes for everybody. >> Hm. >> Why should you care? Well, because if you live in a world with a more equal society, you're likely to have a better life. >> Yes. >> Because living in a less equal society is going to give you a higher level of material well being, maybe. If you're at the top. [LAUGH] >> If you're at the top, yeah. >> But what's that going to do for you in terms of, of real well being, because the law of diminishing returns sets in. >> That's right. Way to bring our conversation to a close the, the, the wager of this class is to by getting some key facts out there. By sharing stories and by sharing strategies for dealing with these global challenges, we'll have a sense of participation in a community and, and a sense of mitigating at least trying to mitigate some of the nefarious effects of, of, of inequality, of the depletion of the commons of the perpetuation of on equal access to education, that increasing awareness, and giving people tools for action will give us a sense, perhaps of, of greater well being, but more importantly, of greater capacity to initiate change. >> And more control over our, the conditions of our collective existence. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this is, politics is often thought of as as a struggle for power. >> Yeah. >> Where everybody is. >> Yeah. >> Out to get, Lasswell said, the title of his famous book, Politics, Who Gets What, When, and How. >> Right. [LAUGH] >> But really, the political is the sphere where we can separate ourselves from what's going on in our society and see how we are interacting in ways that may be producing outcomes that we don't want. And then trying to take that into account and restructure the way we do things so that we can create outcomes that we, that we do want. And so have more control over our, our lives as, as individuals. But that can only be done cooperatively. >> Yes. Well, Professor Donald Moon, thank you so much for this conversation. >> Pleasure. >> Really fun to do and I, I look forward to, more, more discussions, over the course of the semester. Thank you. >> Excellent, thank you.
