I'm here today with Professor Mette Morsing of the Copenhagen Business School, who is a foremost authority on the concepts of sustainability and corporate social responsibility. And Mette, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for inviting me. >> And I have a very, seemingly basic question to start off with. What is sustainability? What is corporate social responsibility? >> Corporate social responsibility has been established as a phenomenon at this institution, Copenhagen Business School, for quite some years. But I think it's fair to stay that we started off many, many years ago out of business ethics. So we had professors here, at the business school researching and teaching business ethics. And this was very sort of a very normative perspective, very much focused on individual leaders, and how their view of the world transformed, influenced the companies they worked in. Where is around? I would say it's fair to say around the turn of the century. The CSR phenomenon which had been established in a lot of corporations also moved into the business school. And in 2002, we established the CSR center at Copenhagen Business School. A little bit against the wind, and we're still talking about ethics, in a very normative, and from a very, there's more point of view. But also seeing that there were other aspects then individual aspects, there's the organization behind it, and it's stands, it's cultures, ideologies, it's activities not least, vis-à-vis the rest of the world. Whereas today, we've sort of, I can see a lot of colleagues publishing, teaching, talking now about sustainability. So from ethics to CSR to sustainability, and to say the sustainability concept captures more colleagues perhaps than CSR phenomenon. Because sustainability also embraces all the disciplines, it invites our friends from the technological university, and also from the natural science and which science is in particular. To discuss with us, and to have students talk about sustainability issues. Whereas CSR is a more strange, and uncommon, I would say Inconvenient perhaps even, phenomenon for the natural scientist. They don't really understand that, but sustainability, they know what that's about. So sustainability is giving us a language to discuss these matters with other sciences as well. So I think that's been in a broad sense move. >> So it seems sustainability to the degree that that language, or that expression is capturing more individuals, perhaps there is a little bit because of the ambiguity to determine the interpretation of it. For example in the natural sciences you could see where there may be an interpretation of sustainability that maybe is a little bit different from, for example, a finance person who may be thinking about the economic sustainability of the company, but they're using the same expression. So maybe there's a convenience with the sustainability term that is capturing more folks, and bringing more people into the conversation, but we don't all mean the same thing perhaps. >> Yeah, and this is an ongoing concern exactly, what you're saying, this is an ongoing concern. It's even I'll say irritation for a lot of people that what is this thing, if I sort of talk of CSR, sustainability. We will also certainly meet a lot of different definitions. So different disciplines will have their own definitions, and even within disciplines, there will be disagreements about what do we mean by the concept of CSR or sustainability. And it is, as I said, an irritation. Because we don't really understand the same things about the same phenomenon. We're not sure at least, if we do that. We may label them differently, but we mean the same thing. So what I have, and a lot of other colleagues have sort of discussed for a number of years is maybe that's the beauty about it. And this is also what you're suggesting, I guess. Maybe there's a beauty about us disagreeing about what CSR, sustainability is all about. Maybe that is exactly why we keep on discussing it, and why it sort of seems to be a captive phenomenon. A concept that will keep on attracting a lot of disciplines, ongoingly to discuss for us from a business school. What is the role of business in society? >> Okay. >> And I think that, again, as I said before, coming from a sort of a normative, and moral, and ethical background, I think we are moved into see as artist's inability being of a much more profound nature for a business school and what we do with business schools. Because what we do here is we question, we critique, we challenge the notion of what is the role of business in society today? So it's not just about the, you could say the moral point of view, it's much more profound. What is the general assumption behind, what does the business actually contribute vis-à-vis society? So yeah- >> So would in that then matter would you say if we were talking about the definitions of sustainability, and they're contested. And if I move that question onto, why do we need these concepts, sustainability, CSR? It seems to me that, what you're indicating here is that these concepts provide for a forum for these discussions. And it's more than just about sustainability, CSR, here you're talking much bigger about what's the rule of business in the society. Is that how you would see these sustainability, CSR is actually encouraging these discussions and perhaps debates about business in society? >> Yes, definitely, and I think forum is a good word to use in this context because we can all agree that we need to think about the sustainable world. >> Mm-hm. >> And in that sustainable world, there's a role for business. But what is that role for business in order to sort of lead, and organize, and make use or produce a sustainable world, we can all contribute from different angles. And I think that's the forum sort of symbol that you used here, that I really like to attach that to our idea about sustainability. Sort of in the long term, why is that we can keep on discussing sustainability? That's because it's a forum where we can all put our different agendas, interest, and hopes for the future into the discussion. >> And one could argue perhaps this form is very much necessary with the role of business in society, because of the incredible influence that business has on the world, and increasingly so. Do you see a need for business students and practitioners to engage in this? Or is this for people from outside? Is this for the people in the political world to engage with? Who should be brought to the conversation? Who's part of this conversation? >> I think in particular, I mean again, me being positioned at a business school, I think that it is utter most important that we of course, teach our students about CSR, sustainability. And we have to let say, teach them about what we call the business case for sustainability and CSR. So they need to understand that there is also a good business case, even a really, really good business case for the shareholders. When you, as an organization engage in CSR and sustainability >> And of course, you need to think about innovation, you need to think about reputation. You need to think about supply chain issues in terms of how you can produce an organization that is sustainable in social, environmental, but of course, also in economic terms. There's no question about that. But then we also need our students to reflect a bit about that growth imperative that is behind this assumption about the business case for CSR and sustainability. So is that growth imperative also perhaps something that we could challenge. Are there other ways of thinking about the sustainability of the business in the long term? For example, some colleagues are exploring ideas about the circular economy where growth is also part of the progress for an organization. But the circularity of how you reuse your waste, and how you sort of make sure that, you leave as little traces as possible and so. So I think that's the kind of things we need our students, and ourselves as researchers to be better at discussing, and articulating, and conceptualizing. Not least make critical thinkers out of our students. >> And I think that last point there, that critical thinkers, I think is something that is so important. Because we talk about the need for critical thinking to uncover some of the underlying assumptions. >> Yeah. >> And if I could draw from your comment book, the growth imperative, which I guess would be a parallel comment to business. There's some expectation that has been put upon business to grow, i.e., to be more and more profitable, to grow it's profits. And if I could tie that to that line of thinking was very much promoted by Milton Friedman. And I guess we wouldn't be doing our jobs here as CSR folks if we didn't at least have some connection with Milton Freedman. And could you offer a comment about the relevance of Milton Freedman? Perhaps the impact of Milton Freedman, and this what we call that shareholder view the firm. And how that relates with the CSR, sustainability the conversations that we're or potentially should be having? Yeah, l think that it's always ironically that the one of the most cited authors in the CSR, sustainability literature, is actually Milton Friedman. Because humans are arguing that the business of business is business. In a sense, thinking very much about shareholder concerns is what we're here for. I think it's fair to say that is also what we need to teach at a business school, the shareholder perspective. But we need to make our students capable of thinking beyond that also. So I think that we are talking about the business case for sustainability one could very easily argue that you just still with in a very sort of Friedmanian way of thinking about CSR and sustainability. And that is definitely something we need to be good at, and we need to be better at. But there's also something else that we need to be really good at. Because without that expert, without the challenge of the growth imperative as l call it here, and without the challenging of the Friedmanian thinking, we would not think about circular economy. We would not sort of think about these other ways of taking care of social and environmental, climate-change, type of problems. Because we need to have that societal perspective and we need our students to think, not just corporate, but also on the complexity in a political way of thinking. Because CSR and sustainability is also very much for any company, and our students will certainly experience that when they engage in the world, and in the corporations. It's also very much a way of how you engage with the policy makers around the world where you operate. And how you negotiate with him, and how you influence the local communities. And here you need more than a corporate shareholder narrow mindset. >> Not of first time that I had the pleasure of meeting you was over a decade now. When I was bringing a large group of, it happened to be American MBA students here to Scandinavia, to explore what we were more calling at the time, as corporate social responsibility. A little bit of sustainability conversations in there, certainly business ethics. And you've been kind enough to engage with these groups of business school students, and business school professors that have been bringing over her every time since to explore these topics first hand. And I, through your engagement with these students who came from outside of a Scandinavian context, and then are here exploring with companies of the likes of noble Novo Nordisk for example. Do you have any reflections at all that you could offer from having met these various groups of individual from out sides this Scandinavia, who come here to explore CSR, sustainability? >> I have to say, Robert, I think it's fantastic that you bring these friends, and colleagues, and students to CBS on an annual basis. Because in that meeting, in that you say, in their questions to us, you sort of think that's a funny question, I hadn't even thought of that. Why am I asked about, what's the roer of the shareholders so well? Why do we have to reflect upon the shareholder role, instead of an assumption? I remember that was one of the first conversations, again this is many years ago. I think that also, we shouldn't under play the fact that we are also a very small country. We are embedded in a little larger community, the Scandinavian community, because we really value those cultural exchanges, and the strange questions being asked from friends over there. In that meeting, of course, a lot of reflection also happens. And I think that we are also to some extent, I think it's fair to say, we are also living, so far, in a little bubble perhaps in this part of the world that also needs to sort of be challenged, and critiqued, and questioned from time to time. So we really welcome those students, but also the students that we have from the US, and beyond on a daily basis here, at Copenhagen Business School. Is very important for our students, our local students, to meet those American students, and Canadian students, and other European students on a daily basis and collaborate with them. Because that intercultural dialogue or dynamic is important to understand more, what is the role of business in society? I think an often used quote, and I don't know who to attribute it to, because I've seen it in many places, is to know just one country is to know no countries. >> Yeah. >> Or to know just one culture is to know no cultures. And I would argue that these comparatives are the best way we can learn not just about somewhere else out there, but ourselves. >> Yeah. >> And that hopefully, that's in some small way, we can do that with these sorts of programs, and also through this particular offering here. >> Yes, definitely. >> So Mette, thank you so very much- >> Thank you. >> For your offerings. >> Thank you. >> As always, it's a pleasure.
