So this week of the MOOC, Managing Responsibly is on ethics. So we were talking a little bit about what it actually means to manage the ethics of a company and how to make ethical decisions and how to get into ethical action. And It's my pleasure to now speak to Pia Poppenrider whose sitting in Berlin. Pia will tell us a little bit more about the ethical topics in her business and how she's making decisions. So Pia very nice having you. Thank you very much for coming in. Do you think you could just quickly tell us a little bit about what your business actually is and what you're doing. >> So hey, everyone. I'm Pia. I'm the CEO and cofounder of Lala. And Lala is an app for paid dating. So we connect users to go on paid dates instantaneously, in the safest way possible. So just a quick story on how we came up with this. We foundered Lala last year in March and we raised some money to finance the product development. We launched in August in Mellen and it went so well that we quickly took it to a couple of more cities in Germany. It's now altogether seven, and we started to take it abroad, that is New York City, US, actually last week. So that's the story behind. Yes, and it's quite a very, very tricky topic and product that we developed, and I'm happy to be here and discuss it with you, Oliver. >> So can you tell us a little bit more about how your business actually works and maybe also a little bit about the history of how you got to what you're doing right now and what the idea and the thinking was behind it? >> Yep, so I never wanted to be a founder. Actually, I have a finance background. And I worked in investment banking. I took a year off. I was a bartender. I did some soul searching and I ended up studying business ethics. Or responsible management in Berlin. That's how I know you, Oliver. And I worked at the Institute for a year. And after graduation, I founded my start up. And, so I never thought that I ended up in the space I did. And what I'm very happy about, is my educational background. Because, I'm a very data driven instructive person, and I love finance. And, but I'm also so incredibly happy that I did study responsible management. Because finance gives the structure to a work data driven, but having this ethics background helps me really put a framework around the product and the company so that we all have a good feeling working here. And that we have this framework on how to make our decisions properly and in the best interest of the product and the users. >> Mm-hm. So you were saying that your ethics background or the courses you've taken and the contents that you know somewhat helped you making decisions, and also in terms of value. So do you have an example of something like a situation where actually thought it makes sense and it helps in a certain way? >> Yeah, so first of all I have to say, full honesty right here, when I was studying it was quite abstract and I was quite a couple of times when I thought, what am I doing here? How could I possibly ever use this for my further career? And now looking back, it was one of the best decisions. And I’m not, I never say stuff to say stuff, so I mean this, really it’s from the bottom of my heart. That I only found out really months and years later on, that this is so valuable. It happens to me so far when you study ethics, it's so abstract and you're going through the cases and you're like, why are we discussing this? And now I really think a lot back how we came to evaluate situations and how we derive decisions. How I can put a structure around a product and the company and the people working here, that they feel comfortable acting with their own set of values, but still within the scope of the values we created for the company. So, I'm really glad that I did it. And so with Lala, we're tackling a super tricky topic that is really stigmatized in public. And there's a lot of explaining and a lot of, yeah, it's a lot of judgement that we have to deal with. And so I feel like we have a solid foundation on how to deal with it for myself and also for the product because, it's a long story, but at the end of the day you can judge morally based on your own morals, but that won't do for a whole company. So I'm glad I managed to create a system that works for the company and not just for myself. >> So how would you actually do that? Because I guess that's a number of different people with very different backgrounds. And everyone believes in different things and thinks differently about what is right and wrong. So how do you deal with that? I mean how do you get everyone in the same boat and make it work for everyone? >> Yeah, so we're hiring right now, but as of today we're a team of 17 people. And what I really look for is, it starts with the interview process. When I get to talk to the people that are applying to work with us. So, I am trying to figure out whether or not this is a fit, not just on a professional level, but also on a more or less personal level. You can't be working here if you don't find, if you don't understand our vision and mission, and that is to connect people in the safest and fastest way possible. So I'm checking whether or not those people are a fit. And then we're really talking a lot about the issues and the ethical implications. We actually do this on a weekly basis, so that we constantly onboard people. So and then again, we have, I mean, in the core of our whole being is that we have some prefixed rules that we are constantly applied, that is first of all, we honor the integrity of our users. And, so and that is how we derived decisions, meaning maybe this is a little bit of ethics, but maybe applying the golden rule. Saying if you were to be a user, would you want that to be done to you? And that is actually really fundamental to how I make decisions. >> So you already were mentioning basically two different kind of tools and rules you're using. So in the one hand you were talking about the golden rule like as in decision making, make a rule that helps a certain way And you were also talking about that the integrity of the users is apparently, that's a very important value for what you're doing. And it's apparently a very central thing to your business as well. So I'm wondering, you're a startup company so it's a rather new business, it's a very new business. So usually new businesses, the formal structures are not there. Because it's new basically. >> Yes. >> So I wondered have you thought about doing something like formalizing those things in terms of like having a code of ethics or value statement for what you do or you said you have a meeting where you talk about these topics as well, like making that a formal thing, have you thought about that and do you think it actually makes sense? >> So startups are quite crazy. Actually, we did have a code of ethics in place actually the first month. It was actually just something we needed to sit. So when you decide to start a company, you have cofounders. You need to sit down and discuss how you see the world, how you want to see the product, and where it should go or head to. And then you really need it to be aligned, and you want it to go in the same direction. So ethics was a huge component right at the beginning. And we are still having, I mean, we do have our mission, a mission statement in place. And we are constantly communicating this. But you're right. This right now, the phase we're in, we've closed our finals round just recently, in December. So now we're in the phase of really professionalizing the whole ethics within the company. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, that's actually what we're doing right now. >> Yeah, yeah. So it's a very early stage for doing that, actually. It feels like most companies probably get there much, much later. So that's a very interesting, good thing. Do we have an explanation for, why are you so early on that? >> I mean, obviously there is a lot of talking about our product. And I think one of the most important aspects of understanding what we're doing is that we have the right intentions and a very ethical approach to it. And I think that users feel it, and also people reading about La La. Because in every step of the way, maybe how we pick new employees or team members, or how we pick a new feature, we have this ethical key component in it. And so it's so important they want to really start working on this. I mean, this especially holds true because we're tackling such a socially critical topic, that we needed to ensure that ethics is the foundation of everything. >> You almost have, also probably, in your own communication, you almost must have some kind of like a position on the different topics that might come up. And explain why, where that decision comes from and why you're doing, as a business, what you're doing. So is that something that, where you sit down and just say, okay, so why are we doing this? What's the decision? Or is it more something that develops out of the communications you're having? How does that happen? >> How I do it? Actually, I mean, we do have stakeholders and we kind of like try to see which ones are very important to us, or which are priority number one or two or three. So, I mean, obviously, people working, so first of all, it's, we develop a product for our users. So one of our most important stakeholders is the users, actually. And we always try to make decisions based on the best interests of the users. And then it's people working with La La, within the team, building the product is one of our most important stakeholders, so to say. So we go through all our stakeholders. I mean, I actually do this, that's my job. But every time we are discussing anything, I just in my mind go through all the stakeholders and see if I can balance the interests, because it's so many times a conflict of interests. But at the end of the day, we do decide in the best interests of the product and the users. Yeah, but this is how I kind of try to frame it, a bit. >> Yeah, it's interesting because it makes me think also about one of your posts I've seen, where apparently there's a French region that has La La as their slogan for attracting people for vacations, right? So I thought that was an interesting point. Probably these are not, they're probably not even on your stakeholder list in a certain way. So that's something where you don't have to worry too much about. But how do you deal with that kind of side issues, those kind of little funny things that come up and, what do you do? So actually, that issue wasn't even on my radar. You'd be surprised how many things you have to deal with, running a startup. It's just simply crazy. But if you address that issue, that was just quite a different motivation. So one, we're not operating in France. So two, so if there was to be file a trademark for this, we would be operating in different industries. So actually what they did is, they never talked to us and they never dropped an email. What they tried to do is jump on our media coverage. And because we ranked higher, yes, that actually was their intention. Because we ranked higher on the search engines, like Google, than they did, and we were up and running for a couple of days. So they tried to get some media attention, which worked, obviously. Now we're addressing the topic in [LAUGH]. Yeah, so. >> But that's an interesting point as well. Because you think you're talking about social topics, moral topics, ethical topics. But then very often there's some kind of commercial considerations behind it as well, as in the case that you were just mentioning, them just trying to hop on the media hype and getting a little bit of extra for free publicity on that. So I wonder then, if you're in a startup, I guess, what must be on your mind all the time is probably growth and survival. Because startups are, per se, a very unstable thing. So probably that's the things that have to make you tick in order to survive, in a certain way. So how do you manage that tension, that then there are these ethical topics coming in as well, which might not be as high on the agenda? Or they do go somehow together? How do you bring those dimensions together? Like the commercial and the ethical one, if you want to. >> So I think to some extent, ignorance is bliss. And I know who I am, and I know who we are at La La, and I know the product. So that is the foundation of all my argumentation. And if I'm being criticized, I think that is a lot of times due to a lack of understanding or a miscommunication. So I really always try to find out what the problem is, actually, and then try to discuss it and just maybe invite the other person or the audience, whatever, to question how they view the world. Not saying that I'm right, it's just one perspective that I have. And I just want to turn my people to reconsider how they view the world. That's actually my approach, without telling them what they have to think. So yes, and that's what we are doing. >> Wow. No, I think you're doing something very, very exciting then. Particularly given your background, as well, coming from finance first, and then going over to responsible management, and then becoming an entrepreneur and doing a startup. I think it's just fascinating, and I wonder how you as a person, as an individual, feel about that whole development? And how also, that kind of criticism that you're getting as a company in the situations that you mentioned, so how does that make you feel? And how do you deal with that personally? >> So, I know who I am and that my intentions are good. [LAUGH] And I think that what we are doing, and this is what you have to deal with when you're especially starting a socially tricky topic. It sometimes takes a while for people to understand what you really want to accomplish. And there's only a little amount of information that people get, but not the full picture. And at the end of the day, honestly speaking, I just hope that maybe, couple of years down the road, people do know what I was up to and what my intentions were. And until then, I knew what I was getting myself into, and that not everyone's going to be totally fine with this day one. It's just that I believe, over time, connecting the dots, it will make sense what we are doing. >> Excellent, well I think we've gone through all of the topics today I wanted to mention, basically. I wonder if there is anything else that you would like to bring up? Anything else that you would like to comment on the topic itself. >> Yeah, I mean, so maybe that's a bit of a thought that I could address specifically, because we've been very, we've been talking about abstract, what Ohlala is doing. And maybe a thought on this how we are actually trying to change something and to illustrate. So Ohlala people is connecting people to go on paid dates. What's happening on the date is a private manner, so there's a lot of guessing going on which we are never going to confirm. But people do blame us for all kinds of things. And why is that and that's actually interesting question. Why people wanted to be so curious about finding out what's happening. As we have payment as a mechanism. And so what we learned is the way we are designing the product and how we're communicating and having ethics as a foundation. It's a very new concept on how to address this issue. And so we try to set up and develop the product in a way that no one at Ohlala has to ever lie about what's going on here. And we've designed the process that we really don't know what's happening and I'm not saying this for marketing reasons. And I'm not making anyone here at Ohlala lie about this. So we created the product in a way that we don't have access, or people working here don't have access. They don't know what really is happening. So it's a little bit benefit of the doubt. And so that was very interesting for us to find out. The tricky thing was, is to develop a product that we still feel good about, that no one ever has to lie about it. And it’s designed in a way that it makes sense to talk about it, but not talk about it. I don’t know if this makes sense? Which is a little bit of abstract, but yeah, and I think that, it's so interesting for us to have really the chance to rethink, or reframe, how people think about some social topics. And it's just, what I can say about myself, is I never had the great money when I started off. So that's not an excuse to try and change something. It was just two or three people sitting in a living room and creating this idea and then looking for people who would actually finance that. So in the future, if at all, I've put my reputation in everything I had adrift and it was the best decision I've made, no matter whatever's going to happen. And I'd like to be at least role model for people who are, just for people to go and dare something. And I want to be a role model a little bit in so far that anything's possible and that we might as well try. Yeah, and enjoy the ethics that is. Yeah, maybe one day you will need it. >> Well, let's see then. Well, thank you very much, Pia. I think what you said at the end was very, very interesting, because you were, when you were talking about openness and not having to lie, basically. That's another ethical topic, so being open and honest, right? So, that's one of the values that you might want to have. And, as you explained, you have actually built it into the design of your company and of what you're doing. So it's something that is in the structure already. Which is probably the best way of doing it, instead of having an additional code of ethics here and an ethics hotline there. And tagging it on, on something that exists making it rather part of what it is from the very beginning and putting it in the very middle of everything. So thank you very much for that. So maybe a first step, or one of many steps towards being that kind of role model. Thank you very much. Pia Poppenreiter, CEO of Ohlala, from Berlin with us. Thank you very much, Pia, and we'll see you soon, then. >> Thank you. Thank you. Bye.
