I want to acknowledge that this panel is being sponsored and brought to you by Advancing Women in Product. A question that we've been getting and there's being a lot of upvotes, how might an engineer recognize where they may be a better fit for a product lead role versus an engineering lead role? Coming out of school, I was studying computer science so I thought I was going to be an engineer, but ultimately realized that I was going to be a better fit for product role. That really came when I realized that my passions lay less on the technical side of executing on an engineering implementation or figuring out the right engineering architecture, and more on the side of just figuring out what's the best solution for the customer. I'm on the side of working with different stakeholders to figure out what to deliver rather than actually building that end deliverable. While that engineering background has been super helpful, realizing whether you're more of a thinker on the product side of what should be built versus you have found on the execution side and on the engineering planning side can lead you in figuring out which role might be a better fit. I studied CS undergrad, but actually went to product to start. Similar to EJ, in fact, EJ, and I work together as PMs at Google. Recently, of course, moving into more of a general manager role, there was that expectation that I would also manage engineering. It is interesting. I have seen folks from nontechnical backgrounds also be fantastic product leaders. For example, my current head of product, he's a lawyer background, and he studied Arabic studies in undergrad. I think what it comes down to is the ability to be analytical and to be extremely, I think, concise in delivering what your customers are looking for. George? Yeah, I was going to say, I think try it. As I was saying before, the silos do not exist, and it should not be as tough to try, to write a PRFAQ, to write product definition doc, work closer with your PM. I think that's the best way to tell. Most importantly, are you passionate about it? Is this something that you really want to do? I think that's the key driver whether you should be thinking about doing it or not. We all believe in inclusion, and it's actually really awesome for me to be on a panel with such phenomenal women product leaders. For female product leaders, have you noticed more obstacles to have a "strategy seat at the table?" How have you broken through that? Typically, strategy for me means having an impact on the P&L. The P&L is something that I stress a lot to the women mentees that I coach in advancing their careers. It is having an impact, recognizing what revenue upside that you bring to the product brand is so important. Some of the challenges I see are both internal as well as external. Internally, my mentees come and tell me that sometimes, they feel imposter syndrome. Actually, since I work in a very technical product and some of my mentees may not come from a technical background. However, that doesn't mean that you don't have the authority or you don't understand what the customer requirements are to building that product. Some of the challenges they feel are also external, such as how do they make their voices to get heard, or how do they find an appropriate executive sponsor or sponsor within the company that can help them champion their ideas, take it forward, and make sure it gets included in the product world map. Combination of those issues I think culminate into women feeling like it is more difficult sometimes to get a strategy seat at the table. I love that answer, Nancy. There's so many layers to this question, so I loved yours, and I'll try to take a different layer, and maybe that'll also be helpful for the audience. I think that something that often happens with being a woman leader in tech is that we get a lot of feedback that's based on our personality. A lot of times also, our personalities might be different from the personalities that are considered successful in a business, and so how do we find a way to be effective leaders without having to change our personality? What I've always leaned on is really making things as objective as possible. When you're trying to come up with a strategy, when you're setting the pace for your team, it's like building a contract with your leadership. You want a contract that outlines expectations and makes everything really objective about what you're trying to achieve. Then if you ever get feedback that might be personality-based, then you can really use that to steer it back to the objectivity and say, "Let's talk about the outcomes. What are the goals that we were looking for?" Let's not talk about why my personality might have been part of it. Then I can figure out how to get to that outcome in my own way with my own personality, and we're keeping everything objective and goals-based on that contract that we outlined that I promised to deliver through the strategy as a leader. I love that approach, Sharmeen, that's awesome. I guess to answer the question: Yes, I personally have noticed more obstacles to get to that strategy seat at the table. Even though strategy is a really fundamental part of being a product leader, I just basically kept the focus on laying it out. The fact of the matter is there's always opportunity for you to come with strategic thinking, and open that conversation, and start to build that contract, and focus on those outcomes, and pull those goals together. That's just the approach that you have to take, and frankly, you have to grow a thick skin, and understand that you'll get feedback that other people may not, but that doesn't mean that you are doing something wrong or you are any less right. You just have to keep pushing with it. That's ultimately how you succeed. Focusing on the outcomes and having a lot of grit. Thanks, actually, to all three of you for those frankly vulnerable responses. It's really great for me to hear that. Advancing your career is something that requires mentorship or requires sponsorship from leaders. I think it'll be easy for me to go back to our women panelists and talk about how you all supporting each other, but I'm actually going to direct that to AWIP. Please check out Advancing Women in Product, it's a phenomenal community and ecosystem that you can tap into for that. How do you think about being a great ally with women product leaders in your org and then also to your peers as well? I think it's just a matter of prioritizing it, a matter of saying, I'm going to do this and I'm going to pick specific folks that I can be a great mentor to. But as you are mentoring or as you are supporting, I think what's important to keep in mind is that not everyone is the same, and that your experiences need to be presented in a way that someone can consume them and interpret them their way. If I did something that's worked out well for me and I was successful in, it doesn't mean that the other person has to do the same, and especially, as we are talking about being sensitive like we're different. As an ally, you have to present this information in a way that the other person can take them and reapply them in their own situation, and being mindful of that and not being forceful into what's the right answer but more about what your mentee should be thinking about and how did you think about relevant situations. I think it's the most important thing to have in mind, being very mindful of the fact that not everyone experiences things all the same. Thanks, George. That's a wrap for us today. I hope the panel has been enjoyable to everybody watching and listening, as enjoyable as it's been for me to have this opportunity to moderate. I want to thank AWIP, Advancing Women In Product. I would encourage anyone with an interest to please consider joining their organization. Nancy, thank you for providing me with this opportunity. Nancy doesn't plug herself too much, I'll plug her myself. She is a phenomenal CEO of that org, and a great champion and advocate for diversity and inclusion in the product space. I also want to thank the Twitch team. I hope you all had an enjoyable day, and I'm honored that we have the opportunity to close it out for you. I hope you took something away from this panel. With that, I'd love to pass it on to Kayla. Thank you, all. I just want to say, again, major, major thank yous to everyone that was involved in this panel, and we'll have huge thank yous to you. I love your moderation, wraps up not only our session but the entirety of the Engineering Summit which is really exciting. Again, thank you to the Engineering SES team for asking the [Twitch] Women Plus Guild to help put together this panel, it was certainly a joy.
