So in some of the other units in the MOOC, we're talking about the ways that music can promote change in ways that are very observable and measurable. And clearly, when we're talking about the psyche and unconscious material, the idea of measurement is not a suitable one. It needs to be understood using different means because it transcends what can be observed. So what is the preferred approach to research when you’re looking at how to examine whether or not this kind of work with music, at an analytical level, has really been helpful in improving somebody's mental health? >> So while I was at the hospital, everything got measured. So, for instance, in the AMT Pain Management Group I would ask each person, on a scale from zero to ten, where ten is an incredible amount of pain and zero is none, where would you locate yourself. And they might say nine or five or three. And then, we would start the session. And then, in the end of the session again I would say on a scale from zero and ten, how much is the pain now? And I would ask both about the physical pain and I would ask that measurements of the psychological pain. And that was basically the material that then would be brought in and processed in an analytical music therapy context. So we did have some measurement, and that written down and kept for months and months and months for the same person, so that we could see the changes. So that was one way of measuring the evidence. Now, the other evidence where measured was I did a study of analytical music therapy in groups that was related to decrease of anxiety. So we would take the blood pressure of the client before the intervention, which was the group music therapy. And then, we would take the blood pressure again afterwards and see if it had gone down or if it was the same. And we would also measure the ability to breathe, the volume. How fast and how big was the breathing volume? So we could measure that. Then, so you could combine qualitative research with a quantitive research. Now in general, what, in general, this kind of form of music therapy lends itself mostly to qualitative research. Meaning the participant, the subjects can describe what they're experiencing before the session, during the session, after the session. And then you can write it up in a qualitative description, or you can make interviews before you start the treatment and in the end of the treatment. >> You know, Freud was renowned for his use of case studies. >> Yeah. >> For example as a way of explaining and learning to understand what was happening in therapy. And the case study tradition is still very popular in analytical music therapy too isn't it? >> Yeah, it is because you can describe both the clients' music. You can transcribe the music exactly, so you can actually see the graphic score of the music. And you can do the same thing for the music therapist. And you can transcribe what they're saying in relation to the music before, middle and after. And you can also understand the process. So let's say you describe a case description from session one, session five and session ten, and you can compare the content and see how it's changed. Or you can learn something about interventions and how they emerge and why you can talk as a music therapist and why did I do this intervention. What was the purpose of that? Or what is the purpose of this suggesting the person to breathe into her harmonica. Or what was the experience? You can talk in the case study about how was my experience as a therapist in relation to the client so that the student can actually maybe understand the impotence of that it's important what you experience also. Don't only have the attention towards the client but also towards you. Techniques, variety of message, teaching a variety of message, leading regression, reality rehearsal, whatever you want. And describing it in case studies so people can learn from that. >> Yeah. >> And I think that that's just as important as any other form of research. >> Thank you. >> In general, it does lend itself mostly to qualitative descriptions. That type of music. It's not counting how many beats per minute the person is doing on a drum. It's not counting, it's about the process. >> Yeah. >> That's important, the process and maybe also the product, but particularly the process internally in the client as well as the process between the two people. >> Yeah, thank you. That is really great because it's important to understand that different ways of musicking with other people lead to different forms of understanding, and that there isn't one that's more important than the other. But it is important that they're suitable. So, Freud had a huge influence on the development of this approach as well as some of those that came after him. In your opinion, what are the key ideas that you see, musically being used in therapy sessions that you run. >> Well, Jung was a lot about images, and archetypes and connecting to the individual unconscious but also the collective unconscious. So, what I work a lot with is the ability of music to elicit images, and have the client figure out what the deeper meaning is of the occurrence of this image at this point in the session in relation to this theme. So fantasy, detours and both connecting with their own personal images in the deeper meaning but also collective unconscious and also helping them to transfer what we are experiencing of this is the meaning of that symbol. How can I transfer that to the outside session? That I use a lot and that's Jung basically. Now Freud making the unconscious conscious. Helping the person to form music. Like when they started themselves in the sessions, some people don't like to be video taped. But I usually video tape my sessions so that we can go back and look at them together. And they can study their own unconscious behaviour, or what they said, but we can't remember they said that. So, using the video to identify the unconscious behaviour, and also to understand through deep listening again and again through their music. What are their emotions that leads them to be sad or angry or happy or not happy or whatever. So Freud's ability to bring up to surface drives the emotions and understand why they are there. What are their purpose? And I also do a lot of working on processing nightly dreams and Freud was an expert in dream interpretation. So here I'm using musical processing to go back into a person's dreams in a variety of ways and then I have them identify, what does this music mean? What does it simple, we may play about a scary bear or a big cliff that the person has to jump from. What deeper meaning, emotionally, does the music reflect that this dream is telling them, so that they develop their own interpretation universe? And so that a lake might mean sadness for somebody but it might mean happiness for somebody else. So that they understand that when they get in touch with symbols or see some things that they have their own, develop their own interpretation universe. So this whole thing about interpretation. >> Yeah. >> Mary Priestley talks about an oral music, or music that's denotal, or music that reflects different developmental stages. Maybe it can help a person from being fixated on one, let's say, developmental level like teenage level where they are in a position and always loud sounds and right away and grr. So then we know, okay. Even though they're 51 year old, they're stuck. There's a part of their development that’s stuck so I need to help them to move up to their real 51 year old. And they can't maybe in an oral stage where they are big and heavy and look like a big baby. And they don't want to really show anything and they sort of talk very soft. So I may identify through their expressions, vocally, or the way they are playing cautiously that there may be part of them that are stuck developmentally. So, from Freud's different developmental stages, I often times can identify different developmental stages in a person's music and help them to repair that and get up to their 51 year old men. >> [LAUGH] >> They both have, you know like power and strength and this and that. And then back to Jung, he talks about feminine and masculine qualities. So talking about listening to a voice, somebody might speak like this but he's afraid of speaking maybe more in the middle. Or a little woman is talking like a little girl even though she's like 40 years old. So developmentally connect with the inner female part of yourself, or connect with the women, connect with the masculine part of themselves. They say I can do this. I'm powerful, I'm strong. So using female, masculine, identification of that in music. >> So I would like to take the opportunity for saying thank you so much for sharing this wealth of knowledge that you have, and for grounding us so firmly in understanding the role of the instruments. In understanding the ways that music in particular offers a vehicle for us to project our inner work and to share that in the safety of the relationship. And to think about how that might be informed by theories of various people such as Jung and Freud, but also to understand in terms of research that it's very important to use the right and most appropriate methodologies for understanding if it's effectiveness, then we can use different measures, but if it's the process that we want to understand, that those kinds of case study research approaches that Freud made so famous, and have been used in medical settings throughout time, can be useful. >> So thank you. >> He was a great neurologist and a great psychologist. And I personally feel that music is a combination of body, mind and spirit like brain and music and neurology all goes together. It really does. And the music, there's a famous saying called the music never stops. And I agree to that. >> Thank you so much for your time. >> You are very welcome, and it's a pleasure to be with you, and any student can email me with any question. I always get back to them, always.
