>> Yeah, I think one other thing that I would add to that is that,
when you asked the question,
I think that there's this consciousness about certain things,
but then there's this thing that life happens as well, too.
I mean a lot of the time,
I didn't ever keep a calendar in my cell, and oftentimes,
the only way that I would be reminded how much time that actually passed,
when I see one of my nephews or somebody that grew up and they got kids,
and this would be this reminder about how much time had actually passed.
And so, in that, I think when you talk about what's hard about
prison is a lot of it goes unnoticed.
because I think what happens when you take a person, at least for me and I think it's
probably true for everybody, because prison there's an abnormal situation.
I mean when you take somebody, like you said,
put him in a cage literally, they got cages that they put people in,
a cell, and you just subject people to what that really is.
I think the point of being able to cope with that is that
people will have to internalize the abnormal as normal.
because it become this coping mechanism and it's like,
we were talking earlier about you don't, oftentimes,
know how bad you're being treated until you actually see something else.
And so even in my case, I mean,
I come from really harsh prison environment.
And to a place like River Bend and I was actually able to exhale and
say, damn, these people was really treating me bad.
>> [LAUGH] >> You see what I'm saying?
Even though I was treat at being treated bad, but it was just at a different level.
And I would often tell myself, then it really didn't matter,
because the reality is I'm still locked up.
So, it don't make no difference if you got me in this corner over here or
if you got me over here.
I'm still locked up and don't have no choices, can't do what I want to do.
But a lot of what prison does, I mean,
when you talk about the harshness of it, you don't notice it.
What could my family have been like had I been there for
the 28 years that they took me out of there, you see what I'm saying?
So yeah, I think there is a lot of, you know?
>> May I add one thing, because I put stuff like that out of my mind.
But I think it's important to say.
One of the hardest things that I think anyone who is incarcerated,
who has caged experiences, is when you have to strip naked
in front of another person, particularly a male, and
if you choose not to do it, you can be retrained and hog-tied.
That is something that we had to experience before a visit sometimes and
after a visit.
During the late night hours, 2 and 3 o'clock in the morning,
they may come with a shakedown.
When you come out of your sleep, and they might hit your door real loud,
and open that door and say get naked, strip, bend over,
let me see your nut sack, let me the crack of your butt cheeks.
Open your mouth full, let me see your tongue,
I mean, those same things that they used to do to those who were enslaved.