[MUSIC] What we're going to do now is to look at a very different set of circumstances in the same workplace, so in the contact center, where you had a completely different experience, didn't you? >> Absolutely. >> A little bit after Ollie moved on from the situation that we were talking about just now. You had a new line manager, didn't you, in a completely different part of the business? So, how did that all come about? >> So, my time in the previous area just had organically come to an end due to just a head count re-shuffle. So I was moved to a different department where one of the team leaders had moved into a different area of the business. And worked with an operations manager who I, at best you to say hello to but. >> So just from a distance. >> Yeah, our paths have just never crossed previously. So within I'd say about a week or so we just had a set down not formal one to one per se but I guess we just had of a mutual discussion just to create an understanding of what we expected of each other. So it wasn't- >> So get to know each other sort of thing? >> Yeah, and in terms of sort of how he liked to do things. He made the effort to understand what made me tick, where I wanted to go, and how I wanted to get there. And as I said, we both left that meeting which was probably about half an hour or so. Both understanded very much what sort of boss he was, what he expected, and the flip side what I expected of him. And so it wasn't so much he's the boss sort of conversation. It was very much a case of how are we going to get the most out of working together. So I'd say it was getting off on the right foot straight away. >> So, we have some immediate comparisons with the first case study. Number one that time taken very early on in a manager subordinate relationship to sit down and say, right okay, don't know you, let's learn a little bit about each other. So, there some effort to work together, to understand each other. And more than that, to actually have that discussion very early on, where Ollie started to get an understanding of what his new boss wanted from him. And Ollie's new boss taking the time to understand what Ollie wanted from him. So this kind of two way conversation about setting the parameters about how that relationship was going to work. And that was completely different to the previous situation because none of that happened. >> Yeah. >> So that's quite a powerful way to start a relationship. And therefore the level of managerial effectiveness automatically starts at a different level. So what happened there then when you took on your new team. Because there was quite a range of performers in your new team weren't there? >> Yeah there was no doubt again the number spoke for themselves >> The worst performing team on the department by a considerable distance. >> Yeah, you do agree, short story there, didn't you? [LAUGH] >> Yeah, I mean, in fairness and again this operations managers a detail man so he knew that again due to a slight head count reshuffle that the better performers on that team had been moved to other teams so I was left with low performers across the board more or less. So as a result, the team's performance would be reflected negatively So, he understood the mitigation, but at the same time was very set on the fact that it needed to be sorted. >> So, we've got some really, really interesting comparisons that Ollie started to share with us here. So, first of all, his new line manager understood What was going so a big difference straight away. Secondly new boss went and said there was some mitigating circumstances so these top performance that were there before had gone on to different pastures and effectively, you were left with a team that's in the relegation zone very poorly performing. But also based on the fact that you've had this initial conversation where you've got the two trying to get to know each other, Ollie's new boss made it very clear. In spite of who you're working with and the fact that you're in the relegation zone in the team league tables you're going up, direction. Wasn't that the expectation? >> Yeah >> Was it that you were going up that table. So, how did you start to do that and how particularly did you work with your new line manager, to have to do that? >> In all honesty and we discussed in my end of year review. My line manager was of the opinion which I shared that if we went back and forth to each other that they would it be happy and I'd be happy, which is quite a fair away of looking at it. The fact is, is that the first month was very difficult in terms of setting down markers with the group. Because for various reasons there was some skill issues, that was some will issues. And I was very very different than my predecessor who was a very good manager herself. But It was chalk and cheese and that’s no criticism of me or her, we are very different just as people in approach. >> So, you had a dramatic change in managerial staff from your new boss. And you team had a dramatic change in manger style with you coming to replace your predecessor. >> Absolutely. >> Okay, so what was different? >> So again being the numbers focused person I am, it was immediately clear that the group I was looking after didn't really have a grip on their own performance. And whilst there was in some cases good reason for that, that was something we needed to change so. >> There's some difficult decision needed to be made pretty early on. >> Yeah so I made sure that everyone had an hourly update of their personal performance. I put that in place. So they could manage it real time and, in turn, I was managing it real time because I always thought the first step to improve these things is if I report and I understood where they stood. In terms of the numbers than what I'm talking to them about what we're going to do to solve it, they understand the reasoning for it. So my performance is here, the department is here and the target is somewhere where the department average would be. So they needed to understand that and that was the first part of how are we going to recover performance. >> What is really, really interesting that's coming out here is a significant difference to the first case study is the wonderful wold called communication. And so, Ollie's new boss always new how well Ollie was performing and how well his team was performing. When Ollie took over from his predecessor with his new team, there were clearly some issues that needed to be dealt with. There were clearly some processes to be put in place. One of those was the non-sustainability of individuals in Ollie's new team not knowing how they were performing or why. And communication and regular contact were some of the ways in which you started to put that right, weren't they? >> Yeah absolutely. >> As did your new boss to you. Regular communication and recognition >> Yeah. >> When things gone well conversely, not happy he told you. >> Yeah, absolutely and in the first month, I guess that was always the honeymoon period where, the team would adapt to me. I would adapt to them and I would adapt to my boss as well. We went through a few weeks where things weren't getting better, and because I didn't have the ground that I did was with my new boss here, he needed to trust me that I was doing these things. And again, scratch beneath the surface, if he felt the need to, because the things I said that we were doing for performance management formally in almost every case we were doing. So whilst I had to start that process from the beginning because it wasn't in place previously, he trusted me, even though in the early part of time there things weren't getting better. But I did have a plan which we were sticking to. And he did trust me, he let me get off with it, but I also knew that if it didn't get better than the tough questions weren't far away. >> No. [LAUGH] >> So. >> So, there are so many differences that we're starting to bring out from situation one to situation two. And this reflecting back to situation one where we had the situation where Ollie and his team were over delivering. And that managerial to Ollie relationship didn't work as well as it might. You have a situation now where Ollie took on An underperforming team, a well underperforming team where there were difficult decisions to be made. And yet Ollie's new boss trusted him and also knew exactly what was going on, and was prepared to let Ollie run with it. But in the background, Ollie knew that his new boss knew absolutely what was going on, because he had the data and did scratch beneath the surface just to check from time to time. So it's just two completely different set-ups. So, how then, because just listening to you talk about this new situation. It seems in spite of the fact that the team were in the relegation zone when you took them on, and that there were some really difficult decisions to be made. How did your new boss try to find out what buttons to press in Ollie compared to the fact that your previous boss just didn't know where to begin? >> I think that was when we first met and talked about what made me tick. I think that helped and again, the key component here is that he trusted me and even though there's always the option scratch beneath the surface because he was a deep down that anyway. >> Yeah. >> He knew what was happening in any case so the performance management what was there, again, like with anything there's a lot of paperwork. >> Yeah. >> And he was always welcome to check, and ultimately after the first month or so we started to turn the corner. >> Right. So after that honeymoon period, all your ground work started to make a difference to the metrics. >> Yeah. >> To the deliverables. >> Yeah. >> Okay, okay, and how did your new boss manage that in terms of your working relationship? >> He, I mean, he noticed, which was- >> That's a difference. >> Which was a good start. >> That's a difference. >> In terms of the overall picture, a small improvement but it was also a breakthrough because I inherited a lot of bad habits. And a lot of people needed convincing that this needed to change. And there was some conversations with that report in line where it was very, it became a straight instruction rather than a try it this way it's a, we all need to really start delivering quite quickly here. Let's get the show on the road quickly. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And ultimately I'd say he noticed. He did say well done, but similarly to me actually, say okay, well done. Let's carry on with it. And that was the interaction. So it was nice to receive a pat on the back. Nobody overdid it. There's still a lot of work to do. So the fact that he knew what was going on, and again, that strengthened that petition of trust that I'd asked him for not so long ago. >> So we've got some things that are appearing here. The word trust is being used again. So clearly, clearly, in the second situation you've got this building of mutual trust between Ollie and this new line manager. We've also got the situation were you can start to measure managerial effectiveness by awareness of what's going on. And Ollie clearly did with both of his teams but Ollie's first time manager very little doubt had little awareness of what was actually going on. Whereby with his second line manager, there was clarity that there was great awareness about what was going on. And then of course the third bit that's come really, really clear, building on this first half an hour get to know each other, you mentioned earlier on was the fact actually, if you find out how your team really work, what makes them tick, sometimes something very small can make a huge difference. And, Ollie just said several times, just a brief well done or thank you or yes, I've noticed, it's getting better, It can light your internal fire and you just go for it. And that took what? Five seconds of your new boss's time, if that? >> Yes. >> Just to give you a pat on the back to use your words to say well done, to use your words. And that though was noticeably absent from previous times and that 18 months that you navigated through and came out dusted yourself down and then had this completely different scenario. It's extraordinary the differences, isn't it? And how did your new line manager then deal with your own personal development? So, him to you. >> Again, he understood what made me tick which was always a help and I liked to sort of get on with things but he was always very encouraging, always said that he felt that it was a good long term career for me in that environment. And it would always be backed up in performance reviews with, okay, so you did this really well. You've managed this performance really well. You managed your absence to a high standard. Again, so maybe it was nothing Earth shattering, but it was also a case of he knew what I was doing and he knew I was doing a good job and that was it, the foundation to say, do you know what, things are going well here. >> Yeah, so as we draw these two comparative case studies to a close, what key learning points can we draw out in terms of managerial effectiveness? First of all, it is really, really important that line manager and team leader have some kind of mutual understanding, have some sort of regular dialogue. Secondly, it is really, really important that line manager understands what's going on, and I mean, really understands. So from time to time says, show me. Demonstrate, let me come and sit with your team. Let me go and ask them. So do something to check, I suppose, what's going on. Another, so the third learning point, and it's demonstrated by its absence. Is recognition for success because we have heard Ollie explain to us that actually his team over delivered, had no recognition either in terms of verbal recognition, financial recognition in terms of bonus or otherwise. Or encouragement in terms of career progression. Far from it. And then the fourth really key learning point that we can take away, which I would imagine would apply to all of us at some points in our careers, certainly it's happened to me and we've heard something to Ollie. If you do have a line manager that is reasonably ineffective, you have no excuse personally, to pass that onto the people that you work with, because you go inside your own personality and say, in spite of what's happening to you, you have no reason to do anything other than going that extra mile for the people that are working for you. [MUSIC]
