So Lerny, thanks for meeting me. >> Yeah, sure. >> I'm working for the alternative which is the alternative website. I don't know if you're aware of it. >> I'm aware of it but yeah. >> That's good. And we're writing number of articles about the property development on the Newstown marshes. >> You have to speak up, Margaret, because of the development that's going on in the background, [LAUGH] difficult to hear. >> It is fairly noisy, isn't it? >> Very noisy. >> [LAUGH] >> Yes. Now, you're a part of Newstown Conservation Society? >> That's right. >> And I understand you've been doing an audit of numbers of the Auburn tree frog. Can I just start off by asking you what your qualifications are? >> I did my PhD in Biology at Melbourne University and really have just continued on with my research programs from there. >> And what was your topic? Well, it was the monitoring of the endangered species of frogs but actually that was specific to the Southeastern region of Victoria. >> Right. >> And this is the Northeastern we're looking at now. >> And what's the methodology for disordered frogs? >> It's a methodology that's use pretty much worldwide. We are using students as volunteers along with supervised volunteer programs. And we issue them all with written material that they have to enter their written information on. And that includes monitoring the habitat, the species of plants that are present and they're all issued with recording devices. And it's a system that's been used for quite some time but you record the sounds of the frogs, because all frogs have very different sounds. And we then send this off to the CSRIO at the species of Australia and they're able to delineate between the different species because they do have a very, very specific language. And while the average person may not be able to sort of determine one species from the other, to the trained ear, it's very clear. >> And who's your contact at the CSIRO? >> Dr. Pierre Simpson. >> And he'd be happy to talk to me about this, too, I assume? >> He'll be very happy to speak to you. >> Okay, I might get his contact number from you, if you've got it. Now what are the findings of this sort of thing? >> Well, tragically, look, I'd like to preface this first with saying that since 1980, we have lost up to 200 species of frogs in Australia. >> That's Australia-wide? >> That's Australia-wide. It's an alarming amount given that the natural extinction rate for frogs is one every 500 years. So we are really reaching very critical sort of levels of extinction rate. And sadly, the Auburn frog has now become one of these endangered species. We started ten years ago and we had 800 recordings of the urban frog. >> And would that the 800 individual frogs or 800- >> 800 individual frogs and we're now down to 80. >> 80 frogs, and that's over, what period, sorry? >> Ten years. >> Right. >> And now when you say recording an individual frog, how do you know that if you hear one in one place, that it's not the same one that you hear- >> [CROSSTALK] We do it over a very specific time period and you record through the night and through the day, through the night is for a weekend. And you're able to sort of get a general idea of the population. >> So does this mean that you can say that there are 80 frogs left in the Newstown marshes at the moment, is that what it equates to? >> It may be 85, it may be less, it may be certainly more, but a ballpark is about 80. So we're under 100 which is very, very critical. >> Right. >> The other issue I'd like to point out about the Auburn tree frog that is of incredible interest and value for this frog, this is the only species of frog that's able to limit its gastric juices while it's bearing its young. It's an extraordinary capability, but- >> What do you mean, limit its gastric juices? >> It actually puts its gastric juices when it's digesting its food. It can hold these gastric juices, the flow of these gastric juices, while it's bearing its young. Now the interest that it has for the average person is that the Biomedical Center of Melbourne University, along with Boston University, are looking at a connection with coming up with a cure for the peptic ulcer. Which is related with these gastric juices which is quite an extraordinary discovery. So, it's a very valuable and a very valuable creature. >> So, that's Melbourne University and Boston University? >> Yes. >> Would you have the names of the researchers concerned? >> Yes, I can give you two of those after. >> I'll get those contact numbers from you too. Thank you very much. Now, according to your figures, we have a tenth as many frogs as we had ten years ago, from 800 to 80. How are you able to say that it’s the development that threatens the frogs, isn’t it already on the way to extinction? >> The development will be the final straw, we will see the complete elimination. But at the moment, we are putting in as many measures as we can. We've eliminated the invasive species, the cats, the feral cats and dogs and foxes which has had an enormous impact on the species. And we are monitoring the waterways and seeing that the salinity is because we have noticed that there has been a rising salinity so we are trying to address these issues. But the problem with this development is that is trying to eliminate the flooding prospect because he doesn't want his development to be prone to flooding, which as a marsh area, it is naturally prone to flooding. It is just a fact. The frogs need this flooding. They breed in the cycles within the flooding and they bury within the bases of the marsh trees. And that's where their breeding ground is. And then when the floods come, they are able to hatch and. So the redirection of the river and the development on this absolutely crucial area of land is going to see the elimination of the marsh frog. They will not be able to increase their numbers. >> But this isn't the only habitat for the Auburn tree frog is it? They do live elsewhere as well. >> They live elsewhere but this is actually one of their main breeding grounds, and it is particularly because of the existence of the marsh trees that are in abundance here. And these marsh threes, as you know, are just magnificent species, they're 250 years old, and the frogs need these species to breed in. >> Now, put it to you, there has to be a balance. >> It does have to be at balance so I accept that- >> Newstown is expanding fast, and jobs are leaving the region and this will create jobs for local people. Aren't you really putting the frog before people? >> I'm not just putting the frog before people. I accept that there needs to be a balance, development is inevitable. He's chosen this place because, yes, it has spectacular views. But there are areas to the Southeast that he could do this development which I think he could meet all the same criteria, but he can have a balance. We can still provide this area for the population of Newstown and we can have the development. But I think once this occurs, there is no turning back. >> Mm. So, how confident can you really be, given that you've seen this huge drop in numbers, that the development is to blame, given that it hasn't even started yet rather than say, climate change or the feral animals that you mentioned previously? >> We can't afford to take the risk. And we can't afford to take the risk. Without a doubt, this development is going to have an impact. We can't afford to have any more impact on this frog. >> But his company's going to invest money in preserving some habitat for these frogs and protecting them from some of the risks that you've highlighted. Why wouldn't that be a good thing? >> Because the protection program that he has introduced is not suitable to the frog. He has allocated one hectare, which is ludicrously small and not only that, he wants to flood it permanently so that it is a lake. He claims to have these viewing pods and these lovely things, but he's not actually able to create a habitat that is suitable for the frog. The frog needs a floodplain. And he wants to eliminate the floodplain because it's the only way he can create his development and actually promise the people who buy these developments that they wont be flooded out. And so on and so on. >> And with your expertise, would you be prepared to work with him to come up with a better plan? >> Yes, I would be prepared to work with him, but it would require really a change of location and an understanding that the marshes are paramount to the existence of the frog. >> So you're not prepared to work with him if he continues to- >> [CROSSTALK] Not in this location. >> Okay. Okay, is there anything else you'd like to add? >> No, except I just hope that we can take this opportunity to let the people of Newstown know that we are doing this for the young generations and generations to come. And it's a great shame that we see something as innocent as the frog as dispensable. >> Can I ask where in Newstown you live, Ms. Fisher? >> I live on the Southeastern side. >> Dr. Fisher, I should call you, you said you had a PhD, I beg your pardon. >> I'm not into titles, that's fine. >> Mm, on the Southside? >> Yes. >> Yes, okay, so that's where you think they should, developments should be taking place? Is that correct? >> I think it's not as attractive, and I'm prepared to say that about where I live, but I think it is with vegetation which would always be welcome. We can make it a very beautiful part of Newstown. >> Okay, and do you think this development would have any impact if it did take place in that location. Would it have any impact on property values in that area? >> If is as honest as he claims to be about his environmentally nine star environmentally rated buildings, which I have yet to see thorough reports of, no, it won't have an effect. It could possibly enhance, although I would like to see the development reduced in scale. I think, as his proposal stands, it is massively overdeveloped for the size of the portion of land that he's allocated. >> Okay, if we could just get this contact details from you, from your contact at the CSIRO, Mr. Simpson, and also the Melbourne University and Boston University researchers you mentioned? >> That's fine, I'll send those through to you. >> Great, thank you very much for your time. >> Pleasure.
