My final question for you Dr. Sohie which is again as someone who's considered a critical and radical scholar at least I consider you to be that, and I want to thank you for training me to be a critical and radical scholar. But can you offer then any other solutions to dealing with the complications and the illogicality of race and racism? Here we are at the end of 2020 which has been such a traumatic year. My hope of one of the things that comes out of this pandemic, and when we eventually get to a post-COVID world is that we recognize how this pandemic has disproportionately impacted and killed black and brown people in our community and that is not a coincidence. That is not a product of a set of choices, and when I hear that rhetoric it really angers me. That is a reflection of or a product of our failure as a society to provide equal access, and equal resources, and equal opportunities, and that's what has happened with COVID, and who it's disproportionately affected is the responsibility of all of us. It is not the responsibility only of those who have died in the communities that they come from because we live in a society that has allowed this to happen. I've been thinking a lot about what happens when we come out on the other side of this, and I think many of us don't want to go back to how things were because how things were we're already an emergency. Now, the difference between 2020 is that all of a sudden it was an emergency for everyone, but for many people in this country have been living in a state of emergency for a long time. I think that there are a number of things that it is incumbent upon us to do, and I want to say this so this question about solutions or what can we do. Well, first and foremost perhaps is a recognition that one must do something. That all of us must do something. That it's not an idea of I'm down I'm cool with the cause so I'm good. It becomes a question of how do we all participate in trying to make real an anti-racist society? We have a long way to go, and so I think the question is incumbent upon all of us to think about what we can do. Now, as an educator who teaches classes, I just finished teaching a class to freshmen straight out of high school. I take that very seriously that responsibility of teaching them the history of a country that to be honest with you, and this is not in any way meant to be critical of these students because these students were wonderful. They were so receptive and open-minded. I take very seriously the responsibility to teach them a history that they do not know, and it's not their fault necessarily that they do not know it but when they come into my classroom now that's it they have to know it. For the next four months that is what we are going to do. The amount of times I hear students say to me, "Wow, I had no idea that the Japanese in American internment existed. I had no idea that one should think about what Saidiya Hartman calls the afterlife of slavery." That one must understand that because slavery ended with the Civil War then that meant the story was over. They didn't know the history of the reconstruction. The time when this country came the closest to actually becoming a multiracial democracy, and that a lot of people refer to the civil rights movement as the second reconstruction. They don't know that there are these moments in our own history that had this radical potential, and so it becomes overwhelming to think well it's always been this way so what can we do? I think if we say, "Well, it actually hasn't, and let me teach you some moments from this history that could provide us some not only hope but even a blueprint." We build off of what has come before us, but we have to do that work because I put no faith in time. Nothing is inevitable. I don't believe that things are just gradually going to get better and they just will get better, because actually, that's not how history works, as we've already talked about. That we have to remain vigilant. One of the things that I think has come out of the last four years in this administration is people have understood, democracy is not something that just exists. We don't have to do anything now because it's here and we're good. That it must always be, what is the term that I want to use? Reinvigorated. That reinvigoration, well, that's our work. That's our responsibility. One doesn't need to look any further than to see. In many ways three of the most, if not the most important amendments in our constitution are the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments, which came out of the radical reconstruction period. All of them continue to be part of our political dialogue, and our political discourse. The 14th Amendment, and the birthright citizenship clause is always under attack, and there are always people who are trying to get rid of that, and there are always people who are questioning. The eligibility of somebody even like Kamala Harris to be the vice president. They're not just questioning Kamala Harris. They're also trying to undermine, and eradicate the birthright citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment. The Voting Rights Act. The 15th Amendment. I mean, voting is constantly under attack in this country, and so in order to understand how our democracy has to constantly be fought for, and it is imperfect, I mean, please know that. It is imperfect. But I firmly believe that it is those of us who are on the margins who have constantly worked to uphold American claims for democracy, and to make them real. I think that's why the work of anti-racism is so important, because I think in the end, it's not about an individual. It's not even about a community. It's always about holding power accountable, and working to make this a society that is just equitable for everyone. We still have a long way to go, but we can't go forward unless we understand what's come before us. That's why I feel it's such a privilege an honor for me to be a historian, and I love the work that I do, and especially this space that I have as an ethnic studies scholar now, is to bring the kind of scholarship on critical race studies to bear on American history. I just sometimes can't believe that I get to do that work every day, that I get to have conversations with you, and I just get to read all day. But that's why I do the work that I do, because I think so often narratives of American history want to be celebratory. They want to be self-congratulatory. They want to tell the reader. That's how it was, but that's not how it is now. But we know better. Because when you study American history and even contemporary American society from the lens of race driven by questions of equity and justice, well, you simply can't have that self-congratulatory narrative. That doesn't mean it's a defeatist narrative. But it's a narrative that is, I would say, based in hope in many ways, the idea that we can have a different future, that's really important for ethnic studies followers, as imagining futurity. Imagining what a future can be like. But I believe that to do that, we have to have a solid foundation in our own histories. Absolutely. I mean, is always, just dialoguing with you is just such a riveting experience. I always learn so much and particularly talking to a scholar of history. I got a master's degree in History myself. I really fall into discussions on the importance of understanding our history and the history of this country, because we have so many folk in this country who profess this love for this country, but then seems to be a disconnect between actually knowing the history of this country and how do you love something when you don't know much about it. Understanding that there is no history in this country without it being interconnected with your history and my history and so on and so forth and really powerful, the way you encapsulate it, that whole answer for the question about solutions, because that is the solution. I mean, know about your personal history and the history of the country that you claim you love so much. I mean, it has to begin there or we can't move forward. Anti-racism work is just such a powerful and essential component of that. I mean, this is what we're faced with right now. We've got to get on board with it, as well as anti-sexism work, anti- misogynist work, anti- transphobia, homophobic work, so on and so forth. They're all interconnected and all equally as important. Thank you so much, Dr. Sohie. Any parting words or anything before we head out? This was just such a proud moment for me to be able to interview you and sit down in this regard like this because we don't get to do this as much anymore. I know. Well, one of the things we first obviously connected on was that we both came from a background of working history. I remember that very vividly about you. What you were talking about just reminded me. I've been very, obviously because I keep quoting him, I've been doing a lot of reading on James Baldwin lately. I always appreciate because I connect to it so much is that he said, "It's because I love this country that I insist on the right to critique it." He said, "And even if I didn't love it, I am an American." That's what it is. I mean, I often think about, here we are. Sometimes through no choice of our own or as products of larger historical forces, here we all are and we find ourselves in this country. My hope has always been that folks, particularly people of color and by whom I do not mean black and indigenous people, I mean people of color. Like Asian-Americans, like Latino folks. I can speak for my own community. A South Asian American can recognize that we are all in relation to one another. Sometimes that's for the good in terms of solidarity and kinship. Sometimes, as you know Shawn, because we've done this reading together by no choice of our own and even for ways that can harm us, which is to say we are racialized in relation to one another, that our status can rise and fall depending on whoever the next public enemy number 1 is, whether it be the so-called illegal immigrant or the so-called terrorist, or whoever it is. We have to be mindful of not letting our histories and our bodies, and ourselves be taken up by power to deny justice to others. That has happened time and time again and again. I truly hope that we can find a way to get folks to recognize that and then try to move beyond it and that we can be inspired by and driven in many ways by the work of the women in The Combahee River Collective who said as black lesbians, when black women are free, everyone will be free. That's such a beautiful sentiment and it's such a true sentiment. Because our society has so been premised upon their disenfranchisement and exploitation on so many levels. For me, it's like, what responsibility do we have to ensure that no one is left behind? That is the charge upon us moving forward. I thank you for the opportunity to be in conversation with you, which is always a joy and so just generative for me. Thank you, Dr. Sohie. Please, you and your family, be safe and be well, and try to enjoy a little bit of break that we all have coming to us over the next few weeks. We will converse again very soon. Thank you. Sounds good Shawn. Thanks so much.
